[00:00:00] Luke Judge: Welcome everybody to a fantastic conversation that I'm about to have with a dear friend and absolute legend of the media industry, Mary Keane Dawson. Mary, lovely to see you. Thank you very much for taking the time to join us today.

[00:00:25] Mary Keane-Dawson: Always a pleasure, Luke. Very excited to be talking to you, however briefly.

[00:00:30] Luke Judge: Thank you very much. The pleasure is mine. Um, and I'm looking forward to discussing lots of, lots of things in and around the media industry and drilling into some of these areas of programmatic display specifically. But first of all, let's start, Mary, you and I. Met many years ago. I want to say 15 years ago or or perhaps perhaps more but then there and there and about you a managing director of Neo Ogilvy And since then you've gone on to do many things.

I'll ask you to introduce yourself in more detail But you know from memory, I think You know, you're a new digital age Hall of Famer, um, or a hero, I should say, and a BIMA Hall of Famer, and now a chair of the British Interactive Media Association, or BIMA, um, chair of MADFEST. Executive Chair of Machine Football and many other things.

Um, but the thing that caught my attention and I remember specifically is, is your, media has been in your blood from the earliest days when you were a radio broadcaster at the University of York. Which is super interesting. And here we are a few years later, um, and, you know, talking about what's happening in the media space.

So amazing to have you here with an illustrious career. And I'm looking forward to delving into some of these really interesting areas, but how did it all start? Let's, uh, please introduce yourself. And tell the audience a little bit more about you.

[00:02:00] Mary Keane-Dawson: Well, I left university, uh, with a baby, which was quite unusual in those days.

Um, you got your degree and I also had a kid. So I was a single mother and I had to get a job. And in those days, single mums were frowned upon quite a bit. So I didn't tell anyone I had a kid and I got a job selling advertising space on the Observer newspaper that was in London's Fleet Street. And I was in the right place at the right time with the right story.

And I think that the most important thing that I learned very early on in my career is if you do not ask, you do not get. So one piece of advice I always give to young people when they ask me about how they get into the media industry or become content creators or whatever is that you've really got to network like crazy, make sure that you make meaningful connections and collaborate.

And basically people want to work with people that they really enjoy the company of, that they're intelligent, helpful, supportive. And that's what I was. So I wanted to get on. I was very good at selling and, but I had big ambitions to be creative and I eventually landed up becoming a magazine publisher and that was in the early days of digital and I eventually, you know, it was completely natural that I progressed into, um, internet and digital publishing and so on and so forth.

And so my career has taken off. A long time, a long period of history. Um, but during my career, I've managed to be, um, uh, become a CEO. And you mentioned then my time at Neo at Ogilvy, which is part of WPP. But I also built and sold a couple of companies, one to WPP called Sparfax, which is the world's largest in flight entertainment business.

And I also, uh, helped the founders of Stake Media build one of the most, uh, successful paid for search, which was very early programmatic advertising. Um, and we sold that company to Dentsu in 2010. And then following on from that I landed up working on some very big, large corporations, a number of which were, one was Time Out PLC, where I was global CEO of media, and the other one, which was, um, a massive influencer business that grew exponentially during the pandemic, was a company called Takumi.

And so I spent three years very immersed in the early stages of the influencer revolution and I have quite strong opinions about that space. But as you mentioned, I am the chair of MADFEST. We just closed MADFEST, the festival here in London, a few days ago and I spent some time speaking to Sir Martin Sorrell, who is a legend in our industry and the founder of MADFEST.

WPP. And it was very interesting talking to him about what the future of technology and advertising looks like. So, yeah, maybe I could share some of that with you, you guys.

[00:05:13] Luke Judge: Please do. That would be my, my very first question is, you know, on the back of MADFEST, which is very, very recent. So it's the most perfect time to ask you really, what is the state of the nation in the media industry?

What's the, what's the temperature like? You know, with all of the elections happening around the world and a lot of change happening after many years of change, what's the state of the nation currently based on what you saw and heard and felt at MADFEST?

[00:05:39] Mary Keane-Dawson: Well, well, first of all, there is no denying the, the rise of artificial intelligence and, uh, you know, the early, the early sort of way A.I was beginning to impact on the industry was purely in sort of processes and making things much more efficient.

Uh, because we used to have rooms full of people on laptops, inputting data, uh, up until probably a couple of years ago, that was kind of bog standard. Those jobs are now, you know, And what's happening is that through the interoperability of databases and the way that AI can afford and allow that, that's meant that everything has sped up.

So things are much, much, much faster because we're not relying on human beings to input the data, and we're not relying on human beings to process the information, because you've got much, much more data to actually process. Um, evaluate and through the magic of, um, AI, you know, and large language models, we are finding new knowledge, and that is very, very exciting.

And so I'm not in the camp of being negative about, Um, artificial intelligence. I think artificial intelligence can really enhance human endeavor and can really bring new information and help us make better and sounder and more creative decisions that are much more useful to mankind and humankind. But, um, One of the things that did disturb me a little when I was at, um, at MADFEST and when I was talking to Sir Martin in particular, is this, this fact that with the rise of AI and with the efficiencies that technology is bringing, there's two elements that I think we need to be conscious of.

One is that the technology platforms, which let's be honest, they're, they're dominating, they dominate the world economies, they dominate the world of advertising, And they take over half of all the revenue that is generated through display and search revenues. And they're getting closer and closer to the brands.

And I think that squeezes the agency world very, very badly. And with only five or six major technology platforms, everyone from Amazon to Apple to Google to Meta, etc. You've also got, you know, the ecosystem of advertising agencies where there are literally hundreds of thousands of them. So it's a very unfair competitive landscape.

And I think that for young people entering into our industry, especially on the media side, They really need to understand how to use artificial intelligence, both generative and in the much more traditional process and analytics way as best they possibly can, because that is the future of our industry.

[00:08:43] Luke Judge: It's a really interesting one. You know, we've, we've talked about big data that became data warehouses, data lakes and data oceans. Data was getting bigger and bigger and bigger. But actually, could we really do anything with it meaningfully? And what I'm hearing you say there is. With the introduction of AI in a more accessible way, we can now actually do more with that data.

We can respond faster, we can get more insights, we can do more with it as an industry, which is, which is good on the positive side of things. And then I hear you on the disturbing side. Um, on that topic, obviously there's, When, when, when an agency is between brand and technology platform, there's, there's strategy involved and lots of other things.

Um, a lot of that depends upon being together, collaborating, creative ideas. What was the sense you got from MADFEST around how the industry has evolved, especially in the last four years, when we went remote and now we're back in office, what's the nature of the culture of organisations now that we're four years after that, that big event?

And technology is coming in. What's, what's the, the kind of the cultural differences that you're seeing now?

[00:09:55] Mary Keane-Dawson: I think the biggest shift that I've noted was the quality of the clients. I noted that clients are no longer Um, kind of guardians of the marketing budget. They are far more strategic. So people that you would have found in advertising agencies, in creative strategist roles and in strategic planning roles, which are really like, you know, the real think for me.

Um, uh, functions in the agency world, I see, and I, I, I'd saw, and I spoke with some really, really smart clients that I would have expected to be in those agency groups. And instead, They are running clients. They're actually running, you know, they're, they're running businesses, either in management, senior management roles, such as general manager or managing director roles, or they are ahead of digital.

And rather than it being like an, you know, we'll instruct the agency as to what we want them to do, which was a kind of traditional, uh, market, very smart people do not get me wrong, but nonetheless, they were much more dependent on working with Agencies and and outsider outsiders people who would have very independent Perspective of their brands and of their business function, etc That to my mind is moving and it's moving to a world where you have a lot more people Probably like, you know, like I used to be rather than being in agency land and in tech land, they're actually going into clients and clients taking a lot of what used to be the do for me functions as well in house.

So it's not uncommon to have your own programmatic trading desks in working with the likes of Google and the trade desk in house to having your own. Uh, using third party programmatic softwares, you know, DMPs and all of the usual jargon that you and I love to explain to people. But the reality is that that is now increasingly being held in house and they're using agencies really when it suits them much more because they want to retain control over what is happening in their own businesses and they're not really valuing the agencies as they as much as they might have one time.

[00:12:29] Luke Judge: Yeah. Yeah. Very interesting. Indeed. It'll be really interesting to watch that development over the coming years. Um, thinking about the deployment of an effective programmatic campaign, you know, if we break it down into broadly three areas, you've got your data and audience, your media buying, and then the creative aspect.

If we focus on the creative, we're a few weeks or maybe a month after the Cannes Festival, the Cannes Creative Festival that lots of the media industry attend. Yeah. And of course, there's a lot of focus on how technology is impacting creative. What are you seeing in that space in terms of how technology, whether AI or other technologies, are helping us to be more creative potentially and in what directions?

You know, what's your perspective on that?

[00:13:15] Mary Keane-Dawson: Well, I mean, I have been absolutely blown away by some of the creative that has been, you know, sent to me and been shared with me on the various WhatsApp groups that I'm part, a part of, you know, you really need to be in these groups. You know, you've got to get into that world.

If you, if you say you want to be a creative in, in, um, in any way, shape or form in this world, which is dominated by social media platforms, you need to be participating in what is happening with the tech. And the smart thing that's happened, in my opinion, most of the, the, the AI tech companies, especially the generative ones, is they've gone.

right to the public from pretty much the early stages and that's great because it means that we're all experiencing it we haven't got this weirdness that goes on where only a handful of people understood something and then it comes to them the market they said they rolled it out early adopters have taken it to it and it's really you know we're seeing the human creativity at work because taking Things such as technologies like Dall-E, and they're using it, and we are using it, human beings are using it in really, really interesting ways.

And I've seen a lot of very interesting generative AI around twins. So where you are like a picture, so a photograph of me now, and a photograph of me when I was maybe 16 or 17. And through the power of, of AI, generative AI, you know, like I'm having a chat with myself and it's quite funny. And I mean, that's just an example of how, you know, this, this is not crappy is expression, crappy value, which I'm sure your, um, your listeners and viewers will, will be familiar with that basically, you know, is where you have this dissonance that goes on and actually that's becoming less and less.

Uh, of a problem because we're actually seeing more and more really high quality, uh, content and high quality, uh, executions and it's, it's super, it's super original. The, that, the downside of that is that there's a perception that it must be really cheap and quick to produce. And I think that this is a, um, uh, is actually a misconception that, um, is, is, is, is rife the moment because actually the best content and the best creative that is coming out of generative AI or for that matter, you know, the chat GTP for whatever is where it's prompt, the prompts that are used are super smart and informed, and they're not like, you know, You know, it's not like paint by numbers.

It is actually smart people that are working. Those people are really valuable and their approach to life and their perception is really good. So I think that, that, you know, that, that's quite an important thing to say. Um, it's just create the, you know, like everything in life, creativity. You know, evolves with the technologies that are available and with the, um, and the way that the human society is evolving, you know, we've got to meet troll of, uh, these technologies.

We have to use them as tools because that's how they will enhance society and culture. It, you know, and I'm yet to, you know, I hear a lot about how they're going to take over the world, but I'm not seeing any evidence of that.

[00:16:44] Luke Judge: You've, you've touched on such an interesting point here, and it's about skills development and the, and the talent that, that is required going forward, you know, is changing very, very quickly.

I think what you, you tell me what you think here, but we obviously had a, had a conversation about this recently about skills that are needed for the future, and you've touched upon one of those there, which is. I'm really understanding how to use this technology. In the case of AI, it's how to, how to craft a really detailed and effective prompt.

Um, what, what is your views, you know, what, what do you think, you know, advice to people who are young or those who are thinking about developing their careers, what skills should they really be seeking to develop to be future proof?

[00:17:25] Mary Keane-Dawson: Well, you, you really need to be able to develop your critical and, uh, and analytical skills, your ability to understand.

And to deconstruct arguments and rationales and, you know, and, you know, basically the argument about something being good or something being bad, you've got to be able to understand what that is about. So it actually takes you, you know, to another level as a human being to actually engage with that kind of like critical analysis and thought, critical thought.

Although, you know, being good at maths and being good at English and being good at, you know, uh, computer science is all, is very important and it's a, it's all part of the journey. I think that being able to observe and be able to make decisions about what you think is good and what you think is bad and why that is, is even more important in a world which is going to be dominated increasingly by generative, uh, Forms of technology that will be building out, you know, content.

Um, I think the other thing that's really important is that You know, we have to recognise that everybody is an influencer, even if they are, you know, only have a handful of followers on their Instagram or their LinkedIn, or, you know, or they've got their own sort of WhatsApp group. You have influence, you have opinions and you have.

The power to affect people's way of looking at the world. And it's really down to the individuals to take that stuff quite seriously, because we have a responsibility to one another and to society at large, to be good and to be kind and to look out for each other. And this, you know, and I think that some of that has been sadly, you know, abused over the last, 10 years as social media has become dominant because it's almost like, you know, there's this distance between me and you because I'm talking to you through a screen.

Um, but the reality is that there is no distance, you know, there is no, we are, this is our world. The world is, the virtual world is the real world. And, If you are, um, if you are making accusations or you are believing things that aren't real or are true, you know, conspiracy theories are rife, you know, you really need to fact check before you start, you know, uh, undertaking any kind of accusations about people and what have you.

It's important to be able to do research and to understand what is, what is true and what is not true. And I know that might all sound a bit philosophical, but you know, we're living in a world where we need to understand morally and ethically how to behave, because that's what will make the world a better place.

It won't be guns and bombs.

[00:20:38] Luke Judge: Yeah, I completely agree almost to the point of, uh, the statement of believe nothing until you've researched it back to the primary source, you know, going back to my history history lesson in school, you know, go back to the primary source and understand the motivation and we're coming up on time. Mary.

Um, Thinking forward, you know, this year, we've had, I think, 75 elections around the world by the end of the year. So a lot of change. Um, I think there's more buoyancy and more optimism in in the global economies overall, if we look at it fast forward to 2025 and thinking from a, let's say, brand perspective.

You know, what do you think 2025 has in store for businesses? Are you optimistic? Are you pessimistic? And where do you see opportunities? And, and think about opportunities in the media space, specifically, that brands could perhaps put their attention to, um, whether it's EPV or out of home, or, or more digital, more social, more influencer.

[00:21:43] Mary Keane-Dawson: Well, I mean, I'm always optimistic because I've lived through a few recessions, so I know that it does get better. It's always down to, you know, us coming up with new and interesting and innovative ways of engaging the consumer. And next year promises to be, uh, on the back of the sports that we've had this year in Europe and in, uh, the Olympics with the Olympics coming up next year, we'll have more sport and sport is an absolutely fantastic way to connect emotionally between brands, teams and fans.

And so I am sure that we will see some absolutely fantastic, um, executions of sport around sport. And I think we'll see further capitalization on that emotional connection. Um, whether it's in, you know, various World Cups and so on and so forth. I think that out of home is always going to win, be a winner at this time, because it's, it's the last bit of broadcast that's left and it really does can have absolutely amazing impact as particularly when you have large crowds and so on.

But there's no doubt about it. Programmatic, programmatic, and. Paid automated advertising is here. It's here to stay. Um, I think that the questions around its effectiveness will continue because we've got to move away from simply measuring things in terms of an impression. And move much, much more closer to the consumer in terms of, did this actually affect the way you feel about the brand?

Did it make you want to shop for, you know, shop for it or whatever. And do not be surprised to see an increasing levels of, uh, concern about sustainability, because there is a tsunami of regulation about greenwashing coming. And brands and advertisers have to get serious about that.

[00:23:46] Luke Judge: Yeah. Yeah, Mary, I wish I could disagree with you more on on topics, but I just can't.

You're absolutely spot on, and I think that's why we get on so well. Um, the sport one I especially agree with, I think, you know, sport makes people generally feel good, and when they feel good, you know, there's just a good, you know, a general buzz around it. Now, I know we didn't touch upon it, but you're, of course, Executive Chair of Machine Football.

Um, and so to, to finish this conversation, tell us, tell us a little bit about that, and please share with the audience where they can connect with you, where they can follow you, where they can learn more about you and your perspectives.

[00:24:27] Mary Keane-Dawson: So machine football is the brainchild of Graham Lassoe, um, who is a former England player, played for Chelsea, Blackburn and Southampton, absolutely brilliant left back, um, who, uh, has been operating as a football consultant for the last eight or nine years.

And his, uh, the co founders are Mandir Ghida, who's formerly of WPP and Chris Perry, who is one of the original founders of Razorfish. So it's a very, very powerful team of guys who, you know, really smart, really, really smart. And what we have done is basically taken, um, Graham's methodology and how you develop and grow.

a football club and the team and basically built what is essentially a professional footballers trading platform that utilises on pitch and off pitch data to develop, you know, the true value of a player. So it's a very exciting project. You can see it at machinefootball.com. Um, it's, uh, I can be followed on LinkedIn.

There's only one Mary Keane Dawson. And that's Mary, M A R Y, Keen, K E A N E, hyphen, D A W S O N. And very happy to connect. Um, like I said, you don't ask, you don't get. So, yeah, we've got a very exciting, uh, 12 months ahead of us. And, um, yeah, I look forward to catching up with you in the future, Luke. Uh, either in person or on this live stream.

On your podcast and, uh, um, best wishes to everybody listening. And I hope that the rest of the year delivers, you know, happiness and, uh, success to us all.

[00:26:12] Luke Judge: Thank you very much, Mary. You, you, you said it and I agree. There is only one Mary Keane Dawson and we're very grateful for having you with us today and sharing your, your perspectives with us.

Thank you very, very much indeed. And. Wish you a wonderful holiday. I know you're off on off to France now Perhaps you'll even see some of the Olympics while there. So have an amazing time Thank you very much for giving us this time today. Really really appreciate it. All the best. Thank you. Thank you, Luke Thank you very much.

Bye. Bye